Wow, first hand back in O8. Was wondering if it was worth calling the minraise with this hand, but I did have a suited king and two wheel cards, so I go along. I flop as beautiful as you could hope for, and I happily get it in there. The straights and flushes miss, and the quartering fairy ambushes my nut low on the turn. Nice. This is why I needed to apply a 2.5% rule on this game; you are simply more likely to play correctly and lose here than you are at hold'em.
Well, with $2.24 at a .05/.10 game, I'm playing like Dave at WNP with his two-stack buyin last night. A little gambly, but looking for a good spot.
(Qh 9d 7c 5c) This hand is pretty high up on the unplayability list in O8, and I momentarily considered folding it in the small blind given my short stack. I couldnt' do it, though--95% of the time I'm seeing a flop for half a bet, and the odds for even the worst possible non-quads starting O8 hand are good enough to make it worth taking a peek. Disciplined (for me) fold on the turn. The key is that there is already a low, so I'd be chasing only 6 clean outs to half the pot. Looking at it that way, it's an easy fold, but you have to override your hold'em thinking (ZOMG 7:1 on an open-ender!!!) to get there.
I felt like this flop committed me given my stack, although "set of threes" was not the part of my hand I was hoping to hit. I had a blocking card to an overset, though, so I went with it. Maybe a better player gives up on that flop. Jason, given stack sizes, would you have gone all the way there? If I had any kind of heart draw as backup, it's a no-brainer, even if they are just more blocking cards. I figured I was more likely to be dodging hearts than be crushed by an overset, but I was probably just lucky it wasn't both.
$5 --> $0
12 Hands
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6 comments:
Wow,
I feel honored. A request from Ryan to me as to what I would do given a situation in O8. I am just in mild shock, but if I get a serious request asking what I would do given all the runner runner outs you have in Hold'em I will go off the deep end.
Your decision with the pocket 33's hitting was a good one given stack sizes. I hate low pockets in O8, but you played them in conjunction with a premium hand so I am OK with that. You even had a couple runner runner outs like Broadway and a bigger full house of Kings full but I know you don' like to count those. I would have played the hand the same way.
I would question the decision to limp in with the Q,9,7,5 hand from the small blind. I know the book says given pot odds you should call there. I agree with this line of thinking in hold'em. So many hands in hold'em never go to showdown. If you play the sola hand limped to you from the small blind in hold'em, the flop comes all rags, you miss everything but a gut shot, you can bet out and you are likely to induce a fold. You won and pot odds were relatively meaningless.
So many hands in O8 go to showdown, I just find the implied odds are often too great to even call with pure garbage like q,9,7,5. In O8 you are constantly putting a good portion of your stack at risk so I just prefer to do so with more premium hands. There is almost nothing that you can flop with this hand other than a boat that will make you comfortable that you can scoop. 10,J,8 is the only other good flop I can think of for a likely scoop. I will play junk occassionally in O8 but typically regret my decision when the hand is done.
Scooping is the name of the game in O8, so I would just try to position yourself to try to flop more hands that you think you can scoop.
Wait, you are really folding getting 11:1 on a half-BB bet there? Really?
So many hands in O8 go to showdown, I just find the implied odds are often too great to even call with pure garbage like q,9,7,5.
Maybe we don't agree on what "implied odds" mean. Considering your implied odds just means taking into account the additional bets you expect to win if you make your hand. The fact that O8 goes to showdown so much is why the implied odds are better in low-stakes O8, because you can count on getting paid in full (i.e., going to showdown) almost any time you hit.
In O8 you are constantly putting a good portion of your stack at risk so I just prefer to do so with more premium hands.
I was putting a small blind at risk, not a good portion of my stack. I was looking for something pretty nutty, or I was done, but the implied odds said that if I hit my "pretty nutty" hand for the price of a single small blind, I will get paid by several other players.
But seriously...with almost no chance of the BB raising and four limpers, you are going to fold in that spot? REALLY?
Yes, believe it or not really.
Implied odss work both ways my friend. There are the odds that someone is going to pay you off and the odds that you are going to pay someone else off. Suppose the flops comes 5,6, 8 with 2 hearts. Is this a good flop for you. Probably, it is worth sticking around for. You have the corrrect nuts and a low, albeit a terrible low. No matter how much you bet or check raise, A2xx is not going to go anywhere, and A3XX will likely stick around as well. 10,9,8 x may stick around and 2 hearts will likely stick around, so will 2 pair and trips. You will likely be up against one of these hands so hold on tight for the turn card.
If you take it down there, great you won a small pot. If the turn blanks and the river crushes you, you have just paid big implied odds to the villain. Then you wonder, What was I doing in this pot in the first place? O, yeah, I was getting 11:1 odds to call. Even great poker players pay off the villains.
Even if the turn and river both blank, you might just split the pot with A2 or A3. Not very profitable.
I have played these hands many of times with mixed success, mostly unsuccessful. So I just fold them often, but not always. After all, I am still an action junkie.
I played Q,9,8,3 from the small blind tonight and thought of you and your hand. Flop was 5,6,7 2 hearts, I have no hearts. I check, original limper puts out a pot sized bet. I call. Next card is a 5, I check, original limper puts out a pot sized bet. I fold. Just a tough hand to play even double suited.
I've been meaning to reply to this, but it's been a busy week. Seeing as how you are continuing to hammer on this hand in your private blog as an O8 lesson for all, though, I thought I would come back to it.
Implied odss work both ways my friend. There are the odds that someone is going to pay you off and the odds that you are going to pay someone else off.
First, if you mean "reverse implied odds," say that; don't use the term "implied odds" incorrectly and then be patronizing to me when I indicate I don't get what you mean, my friend.
The safe play is to fold, yes. I just don't think paying an extra small blind with 11:1 odds is a terrible play as long as you have the discipline to only continue on the flop under extremely favorable circumstances. Folding is fine, but while you “question my call,” I would note that you have yet to say definitively, "I will fold this every time from the SB at microstakes with 11:1 odds and a virtually guaranteed check from the BB." You don't say that because you know you will call there at least some of the time as well. You even follow up with an example of how difficult it is to play crap from the SB by recounting a hand where you called in a similar spot.
The biggest argument for folding, and something we can definitely agree on, is it really hurts that you don't have many plausible ways to make a great high hand without a qualifying low hitting in the process. This is the big reason to avoid middle cards in O8: they can’t make a solid high hand without giving up half the pot in the process.
The pot odds are definitely there for a call, but preflop EV never takes into account the difficulty of making it to a showdown to see that EV. If the other four players in the hand were all all-in for a BB, a call is obvious and easy. Playing this hand postflop is hard.
Rereading it now...I was snippier than I needed to be in my reply above, Jason, sorry. All your points about why not to play a crap hand like that in the sb are ultimately valid. I don't play 93o from the SB in hold'em in that spot for mostly the same reasons.
But, for the same reasons I laid out, I also wouldn't call playing 93o in that spot a huge mistake as long as you don't get stupid with it.
In an "all things being equal" poker situation, deciding not to play with fire and folding crap can never be called incorrect.
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